[TulKas]

Getting a new computer *yeah*. Finally getting rid of my non-working scrap of laptop crap. I have to take out a student loan for this one tho so its going to be a bit cheaper than the last, not looking for top of the line, but looking for best that I can buy more like.

OK so I've been scratching my head as to what GFX card I should buy. There are so many conflicting reports from random people saying this is way better than that, "omg ur such a f'in noob buy this instead" etc. I've been trying to pay more attention to just benchmarks, but even then there are quite a many conflicting reports.

So, what I'm looking for is high FPS with a 22" monitor with 1680x1050 or 1600x1000 native resolution for games like CoD4 / ET:QW etc. and to be able to play Crysis, though obvisouly extremely high FPS for that isn't required nor in my price range. I'm looking for something around about $1000-1200, so ~695-834 GBP and ~781-937 EUR.

I'm thinking that I'm going with Alienware, just because its actually quite inexpensive comparatively (Dell XPS of same power is actually about $50 more expensive, and HP is only $100 less and is crap) or maybe using a cannuck site CNIX.com that gives me far more selectivity, but comes to about the same price as AW or actually a bit more expensive + having to pay for shipping from Canada.

Anyway, concerning GFX cards, I've done a fair bit of research and found the following:

CoD4 @ 1680x1050 with 4xAA
nVidia 9800GT 52FPS for $167.99
nVidia 9800GTX 58FPS for $250
nVidia GTX260 66FPS for $358
ATI HD4870 71FPS for $349.99
nVidia GTX280 76FPS for $510
nVidia 9800GX2 89FPS for $600

Obviously, GTX260 is a very bad buy, 9800GX2 is the best albeit very overpriced, and the two with the best performance vs price are the 9800GT and HD4870.

I'm considering buying one GFX card now, and later upgrading to SLI or crossfire to save on expenses upfront. So I also have to consider just how much I will gain going either SLI with a card, or crossfire with a card.

Here is where I've found the most varying reports that just confuse the hell out of me. One site it lists nVidia 9800GT SLI as having even lower fps in some cases as having a single 9800GT, HERE (http://www.tbreak.com/reviews/article.php?cat=grfx&id=636&pagenumber=4). Other sites it shows a Palit brand 9800GT as actually doubling in FPS at 1680x1050 resolution when compared to non-SLI. HERE (http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/palit_geforce_9800_gt_sonic_review/page6.asp) (I.e. is it worth it to go SLI, how worth it is it, or is it better to just spend more now and get a better single card or a crossfire capable card etc is the main question)

So, my plan is getting a Area-51 750i E8400 processor, 750Watt PSU, 9800GT, 4GB DDR2 SDRAM 800MHz for $1099. Anything wrong with that for the money ? And the SLI thingy is really driving me nuts the most so

[Deonilin]

Really should consider something else, alienware charge loads for their machines. I built mine myself and its really quite simple and for that price range you should be able to get a nice pc.

i have the HD4870 and it is a nice card does a good job at running what i send at it, however crysis is seriously demanding (more than i think it should be for what it is) so wouldnt hope for extreem performance. I wouldnt however shell out for the 280 or 9800GX2, the 280 is more than is needed really, the 260 is a good card and better bang for the buck when compared to the 280. for for GFX i would recommend the 4870 or the 260. I have heard some bad things about the 9800 so that is why i am not recommending either of those however if you need to save money then i expect they aint a bad buy.

As far as SLI is concered with these cards its not really needed imo, its added money which gives little extra performance (or required performance) especialy for the native res that you are planning on. If you want more info on SLI i can give my opinion but for the budget ur looking at i would stay away from it. Having an SLI compatable motherboard may help should you want to add another card later on tho so might be worth looking at.

I would like to add that this is based on my research and questions that i asked when building my rig 5 months ago so some of it would have changed, however i stand by my love for the 4870 and the stupidness of SLI for your budget.

http://www.voodoopc.com/ is a company who always seems to get put alongside alienware in the "prebuilt pc gamer" rigs, i havent checked prices tho and bet they still have the hidious markup. However they seemed to have reduced their product line and dont seem to sell the powerful machines any more.

Newegg have a few prebuilt systems that match your spec too, actualy slightly better as the above for $889.99 (no monitor) - ok the case doesnt look as nice but do you want to spend ur money on that?

Just too add more confusion have you considered the new I7 processor? The motherboard and ram will add an overhead to your costs. With the new windows comming out too which will be better than vista (face it it cant be much worse) do you also want to buy a pc that comes with a vista liscence now?

This post has been edited by Deonilin: 06 February 2009 - 10:27 PM

[Adam]

I have the ATI Radeon 4870 1GB and would have to disagree with Deonlin, I can run Crysis on full settings. Whether its because I have a qaud core processor and 8GB of memory whats the difference between our systems.

I upgraded from the Radeon 4850 512mb, and that was a decent performing card too, performs slightly better than my dad's Nvidia 8800 GTS 320MB (quite good really to say the 4850 is a budget card).

I would strongly recommend building your own pc, rather than going to get an Alienware or some other rubbish. You should make quite a nice saving, as well as feeling good about your own work you've put into the system! bare in mind that if you get 4GB of memory and run 32bit OS that cause of address limitations you'll probably only get up to 3.2GB memory max, and that to access it all a 64bit OS would be needed.

Back in September I bought pretty much the basics I needed : motherboard, graphics card, memory, hard drive, PSU, case etc, and then expanded on it, I already had an old dual core processor so didnt need that, I remember it cost me about £465 and then I expanded over the next few months, I bought a Q9550 processor which was about £230, and some more hard drives, and then at Christmas I bought the Radeon 4870, it was about £220, so overall i've spent a fair amount but spread over time. Make sure you get a decent motherboard to allow expansion, I have the Asus P5Q-E which is a solid motherboard, it has the Intel P45 Express Chipset so supports 16gb memory (not many motherboards support this high) with it been Intel its very stable. And do remember, that if you are planning on going crossfire/SLI at some point in the future, the motherboard will either support one or the other, not BOTH. So you need to make your mind on what graphics card your settling with! Otherwise further down the line, you'll end up needing a new motherboard if you make the wrong choice!

Deonilin, on Feb 6 2009, 10:26 PM, said:

Just too add more confusion have you considered the new I7 processor? The motherboard and ram will add an overhead to your costs. With the new windows comming out too which will be better than vista (face it it cant be much worse) do you also want to buy a pc that comes with a vista liscence now?

I wouldnt even bother with the Core i7, its a waste of time currently, its way too expensive, it only supports DDR3 which is still expensive too, and DDR2 speeds perform well still to this day and age, especially when modules can be overclocked to ridiculously high speeds. You can get a decent Qaud Core CPU for much cheaper than an i7 and still overclock them really high with stock cooling. You go Core I7 and you'll have already pretty much reached your budget.

As for Vista, theres nothing wrong with it! Its a really decent OS when SP1 is applied, SP2 will improve things even more (everybody hated Windows XP till SP2 and then look what happened, everybody loved it then!) in a couple of months when its RTM'd. Windows 7 isn't due till probably the end of the year.

[Am1go]

zenix is obsessed with gfx cards and overclocking everything that he has, he had like 6 cards last 6 months so just ask him, he will say you whats the best, ask him at #kapoks /q K-zenix

[Deonilin]

i have quad core and 8 gb of ram, however only the 512 version of the 4870. I was trying to tun at 1920x1200 too which might be a difference? My version of crysis is also bugged and no longer works so there might be an issue there.

Even so that is 2 recommendations for the card as its only crysis that i have issues with.

I did mention the overhead costs for the I7, but if the requirement of the PC can wait it could be worth waiting till 7 comes out, by then you will have a stable OS and the prices for DDR3 would have dropped.

Zenix does seem to mess around with his pc a lot, helped me with some OC advice, probably worth talking too.

The quad core will give you no advantage in games atm, i brought mine for the fact that i use my pc for rendering. I would recommend the processor you have chosen if you are using ur pc primaraly for games.

If you consider building ur own, we can post a few specs and prices for you as a comparasion if you want?

[Adam]

Deonilin, on Feb 7 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

i have quad core and 8 gb of ram, however only the 512 version of the 4870. I was trying to tun at 1920x1200 too which might be a difference? My version of crysis is also bugged and no longer works so there might be an issue there.

Even so that is 2 recommendations for the card as its only crysis that i have issues with.

I did mention the overhead costs for the I7, but if the requirement of the PC can wait it could be worth waiting till 7 comes out, by then you will have a stable OS and the prices for DDR3 would have dropped.

Zenix does seem to mess around with his pc a lot, helped me with some OC advice, probably worth talking too.

The quad core will give you no advantage in games atm, i brought mine for the fact that i use my pc for rendering. I would recommend the processor you have chosen if you are using ur pc primaraly for games.

If you consider building ur own, we can post a few specs and prices for you as a comparasion if you want?

What Quad core you got mate? If your 4870 is the 512mb version thats probably the reason why then there a performance difference between ours, the extra video memory really does help, can I ask out of interest why you didnt go for 1gb?

Why would i7 be more stable than a system with a socket 775 CPU and DDR2 memory? those motherboards have proven to be reliable enough for the last several years! And also bare in mind that Windows 7 isnt a major upgrade, its an upgrade to the Vista kernal (Windows 7 is 6.1 and Vista is 6.0) so hardware requirements arent going to be that different etc, the OS should perform better on older systems as the kernal will have been tweaked a lot more etc.

The only game i've seen take advantage of Quad Core is Fallout3, and you have to enable it in the ini files manually, its only for stuff like the AI though dont really know why it would improve things!

[Adam]

Take a look at this just quickly put this together as a rough guide, uses some of the same components I used as I know they're decent and should give you a stable system :

Quote

Remove Qty. Product Name Quickcode Price (exc. VAT) Line total

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Coolermaster Elite 334 Black no PSU #33299 £ 22.62 £ 22.62
LG GH22NP20 22x DVDRW Black OEM #33832 £ 12.45 £ 12.45
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9400 2.66GHz (Retail 775) #34052 £ 179.95 £ 179.95
Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 PRO (Socket LGA775) #20729 £ 11.95 £ 11.95
Sapphire ATI Radeon HD 4870 1GB GDDR5 PCI-E #33728 £ 194.95 £ 194.95
OCZ 4GB PC2-6400 Vista Performance Gold (2x2GB) #29106 £ 37.95 £ 37.95
Asus P5Q-E iP45 Socket 775 Motherboard #32296 £ 100.95 £ 100.95
500GB Seagate Barracuda SATA2 32MB ST3500320AS 7200RPM #29640 £ 40.95 £ 81.90
52 in 1 Card Reader Black with USB #24902 £ 5.95 £ 5.95
Xilence 600W Gaming Edition PSU #27930 £ 45.68 £ 45.68

(click if you have changed any details)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Financial options:
Don't pay us now - pay us in 9 months!
Start to pay £33.47 monthly after 9 months!
Click apply now to start! Cart Total £ 694.35
VAT £ 104.15
Total £798.50

[Deonilin]

i have the Q9550 and the reason i only got the 512 was becuase the 1Gb wasnt out when i brought my card =(, waited for it for ages took too long to be release tho.

I didnt mean the I7 would be more stable just that windows 7 is more stable than vista. I still have problems with vista and there are so many compatability problems.

Im not dissagreeing with what ur saying anyway adam, im just trying to point out all options so at least he understands his choices. So many people upgrade becuase they like it not nessciarily becuase they need to.

I have to say personaly i prefer the Abit mobos and corasair PSU but otherwise a fairly sound build adam has shown. Still i have to say dual core > quad for gaming currently but then you need to look at the games that you want to play.

[Calz]

maybe he isnt looking to build?

Quote

Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 500GB SATA II 7200rpm 32Mb Cache 11ms 300Mb/s Hard Drive - OEM 1
£44.75 £44.75

GeIL Black Dragon 4GB (2x2GB) DDR2 PC2-6400C5 800MHz Dual Channel Kit 1
£34.99 £34.99

Intel Quad Core Q9550 4 x 2.83Ghz 12Mb Cache 1333 FSB Quad Core Processor - OEM 1
£199.00 £199.00

Samsung S223F - 22x DVD+/-/RW - 8x Dual Layer - Sata - Black - OEM 1
£15.00 £15.00

Gigabyte EP45T-DS3R Intel P45 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard 1
£108.07 £108.07

Novatech GeForce GTX 285 1024MB GDDR3 Dual DVI HDMI PCI Express - Retail with PhysX, CUDA & 3D Stereo 1
£261.62 £261.62

ThermalTake Mambo Case Black No PSU 1
£31.21 £31.21

Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro Socket 775 CPU Cooler 1
£17.67 £17.67

OCZ StealthXStream 600w Silent SLI Ready ATX2 Power Supply 1
£53.99 £53.99


Total Basket Value: £889.75 inc vat

i reckon its muxh cheaper in america neway o,O

[Deonilin]

I did ask the question wether he would be willing to, as it is simple enough.

Adams build is also better IMO.

in responce to calz's

samsung and lite-on optical drives have been the only ones to fail me in the past, stay away from them. Asus make a good drive and so do pioneer, LG i have never experianced but i have not hear problems with them.

Gigabyte boards are cheap but dont offer as much as the abits and asus board imo, unless you are strapped for cash i wouldnt choose one.

Thermaltake cases are really poor build quality for their price.

OCZ make ok PSU, but tend not to be as stable as the corisairs, seasonic and Enermax



calz build is also too expensive, doesnt allow for monitor or vista within that price range.

[Adam]

Yeh I excluded a monitor on my original specification because I'm sure you could wait a couple of months until the machine is up and running and then buy the monitor. It's what I did, as for any Vista license, well I excluded that because lets face it, there are ways around it simple ways too

[Deonilin]

he has a laptop so would need a screen, urs was for the lower end of the budget so could afford a lower end for £100-150. Yeah could use free linux

[Adam]

Deonilin, on Feb 8 2009, 08:32 PM, said:

he has a laptop so would need a screen, urs was for the lower end of the budget so could afford a lower end for £100-150. Yeah could use free linux

Yeh it was definately cheaper than Callum's and prob slightly better performance. He could change it for a Dual Core and not worry about a Quad Core, main reason why I got Quad is cause I convert a lot of Blu-Ray rips to WMVHD so need the horsepower as well as running two VM's constantly. The saving on that you could get a decent sized monitor.

[TulKas]

Thanks for all the replies, I'll keep looking around a bit and see if I can't save some by not going Alienware, but I don't think that I could build my own, and I sort of need it ASAP since I have computer access about 2-3 times a week when I make it to the library or on the weekends at my parents house (really sucks atm)

And yeah I was looking at a ~$200 22" screen with native rez of 1680x1050 or 1600x1000, nothing too fancy but something better than my 17" 1440x900 rez.

Never thought about Linux, was thinking of finally giving vista a try although its in its twilight atm I'm guessing

Guess the problem is choosing between nVidia 9800GT for $167.99 or ATI HD4870 for $349.99, 52 fps or 71 fps for the money is the main decision, btw. can I have a crossfire mobo and still use a nVidia card, and later upgrade to crossfire ATI cards ? or will the crossfire mobo only use ATI cards and vise versa ?

[Deonilin]

you can use single ati cards on an SLI board or a single nvidia on an xfire board. However to make use of SLI or Xfire you need the compatable boards.


When it comes to building your own, if you know how to put screws in a hole and can follow instructions it really is easy. The main problem when building your own is the fact you are left to diagnose problems yourself but with the vast amount of help you can get on forums and other places on the net it is often quite simple to do.


If you are still looking to buy a prebuilt PC, please dont go for alienware when ur short of buget. Many compontant shops sell customisable PCs, even the standard dells give much better prices for what they are.


As far as your graphics card goes, look at your budget for the other componants. Peronaly if you can afford it go for the 4870, both myself and adam have had a good experiance with it and i have heard nothing bad about it in the past. If you cant afford that in your budget im sure the 9800 with do. The Fps will vary loads in different games too so im not sure what your quotations are for.

[TyphoonR]

i've got the 9800GT and as far as performance goes - it hasn't had problems once.

can run the latest games on full + 1680:1050 and get a stable fps around 50-60.

[Adam]

Deo, while we are on this sorta convo, do you know of a really decent case which has really good airflow and lots of hard drive bays. My PC bottled out on me last night and only thing I can put it down to is the 7 hard drives been right next to each other producing an awful lot of heat!

This looks quite decent and for £60 is about as much as i'm willing to spend! only issue is the PSU is at the bottom so wouldnt be sure if all the cables would reach!

http://www.coolermaster.com/products/produ...ail&id=2908

[Deonilin]

My case has PSU's at the bottom and works fine, however is more than £60 and can only take 6 hdd =(. What PSU are you using becuase some brands have more issues than others...cable extenders cost next to nothing if the problem does arrise.

You can get HDD enclosures for the 5.25 drive bays (depending on if you have any free) which have fans in too.

I am a fan of the antec cases have owned 3 in the past all with great airflow and build quality. for about £50 ish you can pick up the 300 (http://www.antec.com/usa/productDetails.php?lan=us&id=15300) which looks like it could meet your needs still only has the 6 drive bays, but has really good cooling

This post has been edited by Deonilin: 09 February 2009 - 12:58 PM

[Adam]

Can you come on Messenger at all? We can have a chat on there if you like.

If not the PSU I currently have is the 650W CoolerMaster eXtreme Power Supply, and that is exactly the way I have things at the minute in this case, I have 2 enclosures for the extra two drives, but with an array of drives which never ever spin down the heat just lingers and of course rises so just makes all the bays very very warm. I'm sure this is whats caused the machine to bomb out. I saw that Antec Case and though it looked fairly decent as well as that Coolermaster. They both look to have more space between the hard drives compared to my system.

[TulKas]

=========================================

Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Dual Core Processor LGA775 3.0GHZ Wolfdale 1333FSB 6MB Retail
$170.72

Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 1GB GDDR5 PCI-E 2XDVI-I HDCP HDTV Out Video Card
$231.34

ASUS P5Q Pro ATX LGA775 P45 DDR2 2PCI-E16 CrossFire 3PCI-E1 2PCI SATA2 Sound GBLAN eSATA Motherboard
$125.19

Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro LGA775 2500RPM 45CFM
$25.51

Corsair TX750W 750W ATX 12V 60A 24PIN ATX Power Supply Active PFC 120MM Fan
$117.88

Antec Nine Hundred Mid Tower Gamer Case 900 ATX 9 Drive Bay No PS Top USB2.0 1394 Audio
In Stock 21123 $107.67 $107.67

Corsair XMS2 TWIN2X4096-6400C5 4GB DDR2 2X2GB PC2-6400 DDR2-800 CL 5-5-5-18 240PIN Memory Kit
In Stock 25228 $61.10 $61.10

Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 3.5IN 500GB SATA2 8.5MS 7200RPM 32MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive OEM
In Stock 27144 $56.90 $56.90

Samsung SH-S202J DVD+RW 20X8X16 DVD-RW 20X6X16 DL 12X IDE Black DVD Writer OEM W/ Vista SW
In Stock 25967 $26.30 $26.30

Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Edition 64BIT DVD OEM
In Stock 22438 $120.06 $120.06

PC Assembly and Testing with 1 Year Limited NCIX System Warranty (PRE-CONFIG OS If Purchased)
Assembly and testing requires an additional 4-5 business days to ship your order once all parts are in stock. 1 Year Limited Warranty on system components only when assembled by NCIX. $35.29

Check to delete an item YOUR TOTAL $1,077.96

=========================================

Thinking maybe trying NCIX.com now I guess. I can get better performance in some areas and still get it assembled and have a warranty, and I save about $160 with the "same" performance.

NCIX Computer Builder

This is only Canadian and lists cannuck prices, but the same option is available for US only it doesn't have the fancy drop down lists and stuff, you have to assemble what you want in the Shopping Cart and add the PC Assembly and Testing produce for them to build exactly what you want. Only problem is you can only select things they have in stock, so the Canadian section is nice b/c it has it all right there for you.

The assembly above is what I picked, however I don't know much beyond that I want the E8400 and the ATI HD4870 with Crossfire compatible mobo. Everything else I could certainly use suggestions on. Like is the 650w fine with crossfire 4870's or should I go with the 750w that I put on, or what is a good case (that is the suggested one and I have no clue about finding a different one), is the mobo a good choice? Did I get decent RAM, or is there comparable RAM at a better price ? Do I need to buy a soundcard? etc.

[TulKas]

As for the case, with a bit more looking I like this case a lot more, its a little flashy, but it looks nice and has good reviews.

NZXT Apollo

[Deonilin]

most cases will work and are down to 4 things - size (as in what can fit in it) price (this is directly related to build quality) style (ur opinion) and cooling (both for effect and silence should you want it). I will let you look for one as there are so many, should you find something you want or know ur requirements for a price can start giving you options.

Corsair make good stable PSU's i have a 620 version and it powers more than you have there, if you want xfire then i would say up to a 750 for the overhead but the 650 would probably be enough. There are calculators online that will work it out for you should you want too.

Asus tend to make good motherboards and the P45 is a good chipset (i believe adam has one) good for overclock too. go to the asus website, the important thing to check is that if it has the connections you want on the back panel. -there are more complicated issues which i dont have time to check like fsb speeds, pci-e speeds etc. If you wanted to cut some money off you could get a cheaper mobo and you probably wouldnt notice that much difference in performance.

Corisar make good ram, with ram unless you are overclocking it is normaly best to just go with the cheapest good name brand or at least that is what i do. The difference for those who dont overclock is minimal. I recommend corisair OCZ gskill and geil.

I wouldnt get a samsung drive, check read/write speeds you will be glad of having those faster speeds for the price difference between them.

as far as a soundcard, you dont needone if your motherboard comes with onboard sound (all do nowadays). However you will notice a much better quality of sound form a soundcard and more fps due to no processor cycles taken for the sound rendering. Its up to you, unless you are outputting to good quality stuff or are worried about sound quality then there is no need. If you are used to a laptop onboard sound will be comparable to that.

have you looked at monitors so that you know you can do it within buget?

[TulKas]

OK I'll give that calculator a try and look for some more thrifty RAM and see how much it saves while still being a good brand name.

BTW, do I need a heat sink or anything else besides the Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 ? or is that and the two 120mm fans on the case I'm thinking of getting going to be enough as long as I dont do much OC ?

[Deonilin]

the artic cooler will be better than the standard one it comes with so no problems there, gfx, psu etc all come with cooling installed, and the 2 case fans will be sufficient to provide good enough airflow for the above spec.

[Driskell]

Someone mentioned about cheaper in America or something...

Not quite the case at the moment due to the exchange rate being absolutely awful. XD

Also, Vista will be more stable than Windows 7 imo overall. The kernel itself will probably be more stable but in general I would say there will be major issues with Windows 7 just like all other operating systems. If you want the latest hi-tech stuff, sure Windows 7, but if you just general use then stick with Vista, it's tried and tested and has been serviced packed... Windows 7 won't be tried and tested and won't be service packed and I'd advise to wait for the first service pack at least for it unless you wanting to go hi-tech

Just my two cents, probably a bit late but meh.